Bill Lawrence has been around long enough to hear the comedy, the multicam sitcom — everything, really — declared dead. And for just as long, he’s kept his head down, making shows like “Spin City,” “Scrubs” and “Cougar Town.”
Over three decades and various Hollywood business models, he’s experienced good times and bad.
But these days, Lawrence is very squarely in an upturn.
“I didn’t expect to have a career renaissance at 55,” he says at his office on the Warner Bros. lot in Burbank.
Just summarizing his full plate leaves little doubt. There’s “Shrinking,” starring Jason Segel as a grieving widower and therapist who takes an unconventional approach with his client and those in his orbit, including his grumpy mentor, Paul, played by Harrison Ford. The Apple TV+ series, which Lawrence co-created with Segel and Brett Goldstein, concludes its second season Wednesday and has been renewed for a third. There’s also “Bad Monkey,” an adaptation of Carl Hiaasen’s novel starring Vince Vaughn that launched on Apple TV+ earlier this year and was recently renewed for a second season, and a forthcoming campus-set HBO comedy starring Steve Carell, which revolves around an author’s complicated relationship with his daughter.
Then there are the shows many thought were over for good. After years of being asked about a reboot of “Scrubs,” his NBC medical comedy starring Zach Braff and Donald Faison that ran from 2001 to 2010, one is finally in development, with Lawrence attached as an executive producer. And a year after “Ted Lasso,” the feel-good comedy about a British soccer team and their wholesome coach, aired what appeared to be its series finale, it was announced that the series — co-created by Lawrence, Jason Sudeikis, Brendan Hunt and Joe Kelly — will actually return for a fourth season.
Taking a break from the writers room of the Carell-led series, Lawrence sat down with The Times to discuss “Shrinking‘s” season finale, what finally got him to revive “Scrubs,” and whether television can get back to its days of making stars.
Season 1 ended with a cliffhanger, literally. This season’s finale feels like an emotional cliffhanger, with the start of some closure for Jimmy with Louis, the person responsible for his wife’s death.
We wanted to use the ending of the first season to set people up to think that something very bad was going to happen at the end of the second season. That’s why we had bad things happen to Brett Goldstein’s character, Louis — had him at the train station with Alice [Lukita Maxwell] talking about how he’d had bad thoughts being there before.
In a season about forgiveness, we wanted the finale to be a connection between how forgiveness can wipe away so many bad things. We knew from the start of the season that that’s how we were going to end the season. I saw the traffic on the internet of people getting worried about Louis, and it’s what we want them to feel. It’s emotionally resolved in the way that I hope people feel good, but also won’t be surprised if they see Brett again — because we have the advantage of Brett being one of the creators of the show.
Lukita Maxwell as Alice and Jason Segel as Jimmy in AppleTV+’s “Shrinking.”
(Apple TV+)
So, this opens the door for more Louis?
I think the audience would feel cheated if that were not the case. Obviously, Brett’s got tons of s— he’s working on, but he is so good in the show this year, so the idea of getting to show how he [Louis] moves forward interests us. Don’t forget, we pitched this show where the first year is about grief, second year is about forgiveness, [the] third year is about moving forward. It would be weird to not include his character as part of that.
Are you still thinking in terms of three seasons? Can you see the show going beyond that?
Yes and no. I think that this story is over in three seasons because if we started the fourth season with Jason Segel going, “I’m still so sad about my wife dying and I really messed up with my daughter,” people would be like [contorts face into a look of agony]. One of the fun things that we’ve done, because we’re in the writers room already for Season 3, is we’re putting Easter eggs in it as to what the new story that starts Season 4 is about. One of the cool things about streaming, what you can do now, is do a three-season story that has a beginning, middle and end. If people love those characters, there’s plenty stories to tell.
To expand more on Louis — so many people in similar situations have to achieve the closure without getting to know the person responsible for their loved one’s death. What led to the decision to incorporate his character into that process for Jimmy and Alice?
Not to divulge too many people’s personal stories and connections, but it was loosely connected to a true story of a family that had embraced a young person who was their Louis, [a person who had] gotten drunk and made a mistake. So knowing that existed in real life and how amazing it was to see somebody not only have to face that, but as storytellers, try and make them achieve forgiveness for something that on its surface seems impossible to do, I thought was a super cool challenge as writers. Even when people on the internet go, “I could never forgive.” Well, keep watching.
Let’s talk about Paul. Another emotional moment from the finale is the speech he gives at Thanksgiving. It’s so powerful and tender. We know his Parkinson’s disease will continue to progress. And I know that character’s story is a personal one for you.
The third season is going to be about how it continues. But moving forward doesn’t have to be death. It could also mean, “What’s the rest of your life gonna look like? Are you able to persevere?” My dad has Lewy body [dementia] and Parkinson’s, Brett’s dad has Parkinson’s. I was just randomly talking to [actor Michael J. Fox] the other day, because he’s one of my first major mentors. It does not have a great end, as a disease, but that doesn’t mean it’s not gonna be an inspiring, uplifting take on the story. And I don’t want people to go in thinking that Harrison Ford’s character has to die because that might be too sad.
Has Michael seen the show? Has he given any feedback?
Mikey reached out to me because — he was so kind — we were just shooting the s—. We connected over the summer and he reached out because he had caught up on the show. He nicely said we had gotten a lot of the things right. He is way too young and is still such a rock star with that disease.
Harrison Ford and Wendie Malick in “Shrinking.”
(Beth Dubber / Apple TV+)
Have you thought about finding a way to have him in the show?
I would kill to. Just know that I have and will continue to ask to work with Mike — he was cool enough to do “Scrubs.” I would kill to find a way to get him into this world. He’s the busiest person I know and I can never tell you what he’s up for. There’s an open invite.
Might Cobie Smulders, Jason’s former “How I Met Your Mother” co-star who guest starred this season, make a return next season? Is there interest in exploring that dynamic for Jimmy for the season focused on moving forward?
Good idea.
What is Jimmy to you? What are you working through in Jimmy?
I’m trying to say this without divulging too much about the third season. But Jimmy has built a found family around himself. I have a real family around me. My last kid is 18 and about to split. My other two kids are gone. My wife is taking it in stride. I am not. So, a component of this storytelling, and what moving forward means, is I would imagine that a character like Jimmy’s nightmare would be to end up alone. We very intentionally set up a daughter that’s going off to college. And he currently has somebody living in his pool house that probably shouldn’t be and so I think that’s what I’m wrestling through. How do you hold on to the things that make you feel safe and comfortable?
You also launched “Bad Monkey” this year. The tone was a departure for you. How did it push you, writing-wise?
I was inspired by Harrison Ford, who just did a Marvel movie. I asked him when he took the job, “Why are you doing it?” He said, “I want to do s— I haven’t done before and we’ll see how it goes.” I’m trying to look for stuff that makes me scared the way I used to be scared. Carl Hiassen was my favorite writer since I was 14 years old. And going to your favorite writer and essentially saying, “I want to take one of your books and add eight chapters in the middle, and then change some stuff,” is bananas. That challenge of trying to capture someone else’s voice and meld it with my own was super, super fun.
You made headlines with the news about the revival of “Scrubs.” The question of bringing it back has followed you for years. So what was it that finally got you on board with the idea?
It’s so interesting because you can’t give an answer that makes everybody happy. I’ll start with, if I thought it was a bad idea, I wouldn’t do it. I’m not chasing commerce and without being self-aggrandizing, I don’t need to. Creatively, if somebody said, “Do you want to pick ‘Scrubs’ up right back in the same hospital with the same people on a normal day, everything’s back to normal?” No, that would be disingenuous to the story. Am I curious and can I think of a bunch of stories about where some of these characters are years later, not being kid interns anymore, and having new young people around them, with the way the medical world has changed — yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. That creative answer was easy. The complicated thing, and why I was always hesitant, was I don’t work for Disney anymore. I work here [Warner Bros.], and it’s not really, business-wise, a show I was allowed to go do. It’s not jerky for Warner Brothers to say, “We’re not employing you to go do a Disney show.”
The thing that changed is the cast are all tight in real life and as a lot of us do, at this point in our lives, covet that experience. So [there’s] the amount of friends that [say], “Man, it would be fun to have that experience again because we all really loved each other.” And you connect that directly to a time in Hollywood that not only are we not making a ton of stuff, but people that I really care about and love, both in front of and behind the camera, they’re scrambling, hustling to find work. The best thing for the show is a sad state of affairs, which there are amazing writers that are available. It’s not going to be a mailed-in cash grab. There will be a bunch of the original “Scrubs” writers on the show; there will also be a bunch of new writers. Someone was like, “I hope this doesn’t happen.” That made me incredulous. Like, why the f— would you care if it happened? He’s like, “I just love the show so much, it would tarnish it.” I don’t think that’s true. Shows that I care about have had reboots. This is my attitude: If it’s a show I love, I’m gonna watch it. If it’s great, I’m gonna be super happy. If it’s good, whatever, at least it didn’t offend me. And if it sucks, I’m gonna be super happy to badmouth how much it sucks to my friends. Not on the internet. But that’s how I watch TV. To me, that’s a no-lose. What’s the big deal?
Not to get way too deep on you, I’ve got my own stuff to work through. You hinted at it before and I would probably, without telling anybody the reasons, just say: I’m doing this just because it’s something that’s important to me for my own stuff. I’ll live with the consequences.
Zach Braff as John “J.D.” Dorian, Donald Faison as Turk in “Scrubs,” which ran on NBC from 2001 to 2010. It was recently announced that a reboot of the series is in development.
(Dean Hendler / NBC)
I know you’re not going to be the showrunner, but when do things start up in the writers room?
In the new year. I can’t say who they are because the showrunner deal is being made as we speak, but as soon as that’s done, we’ll start. We’ve already been shooting the s— because we’re old friends, but we’ll start coming up with the idea of where the world starts and who’s doing what. They’ve said it’s been so weird going back and watching every episode. My ultimate goal on the whole thing is just to get the music restored to the old episodes.
Another show that’s returning is “Ted Lasso,” which you’re an executive producer on. Throughout its third season the question loomed about whether it was a series finale or a season finale. Jason Sudeikis had conceived it as a three-season show, but things changed. What happened?
I’m always very careful to make sure it never comes out on my mouth like it’s my show, because I’m so proud to be part of it. But Jason’s the guy driving the wheel on that. But the one thing that he was always very clear about, without divulging anything, is that the story that we came up with for the first three seasons was “Ted Lasso” had a beginning, middle and end; without a doubt it had an end, you saw him jumping around and go home. It helped cement my thoughts and I don’t want to speak for him, but it’d be interesting to see that there’s always another story to tell with characters that people like, but it’s a different story. It’s almost a self-reboot. I think that he [Jason] always had in his head another story he wanted to tell.
As I was looking back at our previous coverage of you, there was a quote from 2013 that stood out to me that I want to read to you. I’m curious how you would amend this quote: “There are two ways to survive in television now, and one is really hard, and I haven’t cracked it yet, which is to grab hold of this giant zeitgeist hit like ‘Modern Family,’ where everyone in the world wants to see it, and you just write your own ticket. The other way is to appeal to a very specific, very loyal group of people, and if you make that contract, you can keep a show like ‘Scrubs’ alive for nine years.”
The only thing that’s been added to that is a “very specific show that appeals to a very specific streaming site’s brand.” Because they’re all different.
I’ll add one other thing. Nowadays, it seems that a lot of the shows are “What’s the biggest, most talented movie stars you can get?” — and it’s such a gift to get to work with these people. A career highlight for me, no matter what, is to be involved in this stage of Harrison Ford’s career.
I’m behind the curtain and get to see how expensive these shows are, and they better be a hit or successful or else you don’t get to make them. I think there’s going to be a third way of going, “Can you find a way in — to go back to the past, in this sense — of doing a show that creates stars instead of the other way around and that you can get the burden of massive financial success off of it because it’s so inexpensive to do and make?” I’m trying to find my way to those things now. There’s tons of positive results of the strike, but one of the positives is, understandably, a lot of places going, “I wonder if that’s the thing you can do?” The second anybody nails it, the better.
Speaking of working with big Hollywood stars, you’ve got Steve Carell starring in your next comedy series, which will be for HBO.
He is the nicest human being I’ve ever met. He’s one of those people that at first you’re like, “This can’t be real.” Because I’m a cynic. But he’s so kind and so great at setting culture. I’m a massive fan when actors and actresses that can do huge, big comedic swings and still make you give a s—. People watch “The Office” for a reason. It was so funny, but I cannot believe that that specific character, as broad and insanely backwards as his thinking was, could still turn a knob and pull on my heart. There’s nobody better at this.
I love the experience [of working with a big star] at this point in my career more than I did [during “Spin City”] with [Fox] because I have the 10,000 hours [of practice]. And I think with people this skilled, they have to know and believe that you’re as good at this or at least as much of a veteran as they are. It took me a second for a Harrison to be like, “oh, you know how to do this?”
You directed the Season 2 finale of “Shrinking.” How was it to direct Harrison Ford?
It was a gift. It was so fun being collaborative with Harrison because some of the beats in the finale, we made up on the fly. One of them was, I remember saying, “I need something to end on. And I think what would be funny, to imply that everybody’s leaving, is to see Alice (Lukita Maxwell) wearing your hat.”
I love the peck on the cheek that he gives her.
You see! That’s him. I said, “And you come back and get your hat, you’re annoyed at her.” And he was like, “I love that, but I’d have to give her a smooch.” That’s the best reason to do it because not only did he take my pitch, but he made it better. He’s an absolute gamer. At one point, he didn’t want to do this joke with the phrase “raw dogging” in it. Because he didn’t really know what it was about. Then we told him. And he’s like, “Oh, that’s pretty funny.” And he went for it. It was the funniest thing in the world. I remember sitting behind the monitors going, “I love that Harrison Ford is saying this so much. It’s bringing me joy.”
Now, I’m just imagining the process of you explaining to him what it is.
No, no, not me. Someone else had to tell him.
