Note: Major spoilers ahead for “Captain America: Brave New World”
The MCU has settled in with the new Captain America, with Anthony Mackie finally bringing his version to the big screen in “Captain America: Brave New World.” And the new film certainly had a journey in getting made.
At this point, director Julius Onah is still processing the fact that it’s finally here. As he explained to TheWrap, “it’s constantly a process of reprocessing it.”
“It’s one thing to first start the job. It’s another thing to go out there at D23, it’s another thing to be in Trafalgar Square and have Harrison Ford, and Anthony Mackie, and Kevin Feige, and Lou D’Esposito next to you, and Nate Moore,” he said.
“I’m constantly processing it. I don’t think I will fully grasp what it is until I actually get back home and return to my quiet little life in Berlin and look back at it all, but yeah, you’re right. It’s a huge deal, and I’m really grateful.”
Of course, this movie’s been heavily scrutinized from the beginning, between leaks, reshoots and more. So, we had Onah take us through how “Captain America: Brave New World” evolved from start to finish.
You can dig into TheWrap’s full conversation with Julius Onah below.
So take me back to the beginning here. How do you prep for this? Do you watch all of the MCU? Do you just watch ‘Incredible Hulk,’ ‘Eternals,’ ‘Falcon and the Winter Soldier?’ What pieces of the MCU did you go back to before you got into this?
Well, I watched everything that was key and pertinent to this movie, certainly, and I did go back and I watched other things. And it wasn’t always like “I need to sit down and do a marathon.” It was at different points in time where I would go back and just say, “You know what, I want to take a look at this and delve deeper into that because of the way it affects this story.”
Look, I’ve watched the movies. I’ve watched the shows, just like probably everybody else on this planet. So I was pretty well-versed and caught up by the time I was offered this job anyway. But then, you know, you want to get the details right. So I certainly went back at certain points and watched very specific things for specific reasons.
I’d be curious which one or which ones were most helpful to you.
I would say going back and watching, certainly, all the Captain America movies and “Falcon and Winter Soldier.” And going back and looking at Avengers movies. I went back and I looked at “Ant-Man.” Pretty much everything that had either Sam Wilson or Thaddeus Ross. So I went back and I looked at “Black Widow” again or certainly ‘The Incredible Hulk.’
You also come from the indie scene. This, I know, has been a long-term goal for you, creating something this big. Were there any kind of tricks or methods that you picked up from creating indie films that helped you make something like this?
I don’t know if I would call it a trick, as much as just a process that I like to use, that the folks at Marvel was great about, and the cast was great about. I love to do rehearsals beforehand. So, I got the cast together, everybody came early, Harrison, and obviously Anthony, and Danny, and we spent a little bit of time just workshopping the scenes and trying to think through the shape and the moments and the beats. And it ended up being very informative.
And then also just building a shorthand between them as performers, and then me and them as a director, and them as actors. So that’s something that you have to sort of make sure to allocate time for and be straightforward with people at the very beginning, and it’s something I want to continue to do on every project I work on.
Was there any element that specifically came from rehearsals? Like, was there something that was changed, a line or even just a dynamic — something that specifically came out of those rehearsals that you wouldn’t have had otherwise?
Andi, there was a whole scene (laughs). So, between Sam and Isaiah, when Isaiah is in prison and Sam goes to visit him, there was a version that I’d written that felt really good to me. And then there was, you know, you go through a process of iterating, and then it got rewritten. And we went and we rehearsed that version of the scene; this is Carl and Anthony.
And Carl’s just like, “Eh, something doesn’t quite feel right.” And I was like,”OK, well, you know what? Here’s another version of the scene. Let’s try running this one.” And we ran it, and it just started to sing. So then I went back to my great partners at Marvel, and just said, “Hey, I think this earlier version of the scene is the one,” and that’s what you have in the movie right now.
Interesting. I’m glad you mentioned this, because I do want to get into the changes that happened on this film with you. With any film, from start to finish, it’s going to change. From the first thing that you got on your desk to what we see on the screen, almost inevitably, there are going be changes. So what was that first version that you got? What was the story then?
You know, I don’t even necessarily look at it as change, as much as evolution. A screenplay is not a movie. A screenplay is a blueprint. It is a foundation that you work upon, work from, and then you get incredible craftspeople and incredible actors, and then you build the movie.
So, this notion that any movie — and you could look through the history of movie-making — is exactly the words on the page in the script, and that becomes a finished movie, is not the case on, I don’t know, “Jaws,” or “Star Wars,” or “The Wizard of Oz,” or “The Lord of the Rings,” or anything. You could say the same thing for indie and art house movies.
The nuts and bolts of the story, which was a dramatic triangle between Ross, and Sam, and Stearns was always there. The idea of an emotional journey with Sam that leaned into his sense of empathy as his superpower was something that was there, but I wanted to elevate further.
And I would say the one thing that probably evolved was moving the movie more from a heightened version of it to one that was more grounded. So it was that evolutionary process that is so important, and I think one of the things that’s always tricky when you’re working with such heightened source material.
OK, here’s where we’re going to go real nitty gritty.
I’m here for it!
You mentioned a whole scene got changed, but we also know that a whole character got added. You got Giancarlo Esposito in there entirely in reshoots. It’s not often that you get a whole new character in reshoots so, in your mind, what was the necessity for him to come in?
Yeah! Well, I think it gets a little deceptive in ‘a whole new character was added,’ because Serpent Society was always a part of the story, so the story function that Serpent Society serves in the film has never changed. What the necessity was, [with] the grounded tone of the movie, was how do we make sure that we don’t drive out of the lane that the movie organically wants to be in?
And you have such great actors who have a tendency to ground everything they do in a beautiful way, in people like Anthony and people like Harrison. And it was clear that we were deviating probably a bit too much from the grounded tone that we wanted the movie to have with how we had created Serpent Society at first.
You know, they are people dressed like snakes in comic books, and they have snake-adjacent powers and stuff that’s really, really heightened, and you wanted an actor who could really help us lean, or gesture towards the fantastic, but without losing that sense of grounding.
So it’s not like Serpent Society or the character changed. It was just, let’s really introduce a version of them that fits into the tone of the movie. And Sidewinder has historically been the founder of Serpent Society. So that was also another detail that we wanted to weave into it, since it’s our first time seeing them in the MCU. And when Giancarlo was available, hell yeah!
That’s true, they are very snakey looking. Was there a conversation about not making him look very Serpent Society? Was there a conscious decision to make him more “normal”?
100%. What was interesting to me, and when you get somebody like Giancarlo, you want to find things that are juicy to play with, and what we talked about a lot were private military companies, like, let’s say, the Wagner group in Russia. That’s probably what a real life Serpent Society mercenary group would lean into.
And then I also love the idea of a figure who has incredible hold on his followers, almost an aura around him. So we started talking about some of these warlords you would see in Congo, or certain parts of Africa, and kind of combined a warlord and a mercenary group. And that felt like an interesting way to ground Serpent Society and Sidewinder in our world.
And to your point, again, about how things evolved, it’s the same thing when you look at somebody like The Leader, who you know has telekinetic powers in publishing. Early on in the process, that’s something that we played with a little bit, but it just became clear that his intellect as a grounded adversary was the more interesting thing to lean into and the more tonally appropriate thing.
So what sounds drastic on the outside, which I know people don’t know, is actually very, very specific and considered on the inside. And it’s really just about turning dials.
I know you’re not going to be able to give me an answer here, I’m going to try anyway. Because you say “When we see them for the first time” — do we think that Giancarlo’s Sidewinder will be back? You certainly leave a lane for him.
That lane is left open for a reason, is all I’ll say (laughs).
OK! And I’m also glad you mentioned The Leader, because yes, The Leader’s look changed. There were also promotional images at one point of Isaiah and Ruth in full gear. So, how early on did you decide this? Did you get into production with them in their costumes, with Leader with his big head? Or was this from the start, you decided to change these looks?
From the very beginning, the point of view that I was bringing, that Marvel was also really excited about, was how do we make this the most grounded adventure we can? But obviously nobody is unaware of the fact that these are iconic characters, certainly in publishing. So you’re always just trying to thread that needle, and that is part of the organic process of making any movie, certainly a movie of this scale.
And some of the things I referenced before were all movies that — I think the difference now is probably because of the internet, and social media, and leaks, all sorts of things end up out in the open, and it sounds like, ‘Oh my God, so much is [changed]!’ And it’s not, it’s just the organic process of making the movie.
The things I referenced — actors change roles all the time, right? It wasn’t originally Michael J. Fox in Back to the Future (laughs). That’s not the first Aragorn who was in ‘Lord of the Rings,’ etc, etc. That’s all just part of the organic process. And I think sometimes, because so much stuff is speculated on, it seems as if, “Oh my God, so many things are changing,” but you’re always going to do what’s best for the movie, and to make sure you deliver the best story for an audience.
I’m interested in your experience with the leaks. Because obviously, you’re right, we know these things because images get out, and we hear things, and things are reported upon. How, as a director, do you handle that? I assume, in the indie world, you maybe don’t have to deal with leaks as much, but when you step into Marvel, I mean, you can’t say a word until it is officially time. So how do you deal with making this film while these leaks are happening?
You just focus on making the movie. Look, I naturally tend to be a pretty private person. I don’t have any social media presence, none of that kind of stuff. So it’s not very hard for me to tune stuff out, for the most part, because I love my job, and I love working, and I love collaborating with the people in front of me.
And when you have so much around you in terms of just great, generous collaborators, it’s very easy to stay focused on that. And you know, you’ll hear things here and there, but you’re making the movie, and what a great opportunity. I remember what it was like dreaming to make movies 20 years ago.
Not everybody who I came up with still gets to wake up and do that. And the fact that I do is something I try to stay very grateful for. So you focus on what’s in front of you, and you try to make it the best you can.
Speaking of that dreaming, I know you got some personal touches in the movie. The cherry blossoms were very, very important to you, and it’s a very personal thing. And I know that at some point, there was a version of the script where the big finale took place over on Celestial Island. It moves now to the cherry blossom trees. Was that kind of getting a little bit of you into the movie?
Well, you want to honor the characters first and foremost, you know? So, yes, there was a personal connection to that, but the bigger swerve was actually moving it to Washington, DC. And that was something I’d pitched to our friends at Marvel because it felt like the place where the movie could end, where the location actually has an emotional and thematic resonance for our characters.
Sam is Captain America. Ross is the president of the United States of America. Part of him being the president of the United States of America is an opportunity to evolve away from being Thunderbolt, who is this angry, temperamental figure, to being this elder statesman, being this world leader who can bring people together using Adamantium. And that is his material objective, but his emotional objective is to reconnect with his daughter, right?
So, then you need a location to end the story where all those things can come together. So your geopolitical story, I think, makes a little bit more sense ending it in DC in terms of what the presidency means to Ross. And then your personal story makes more sense in using the cherry blossoms as a background, because it connects Ross to Betty. And then Sam ties it all together as our hero who’s able to solve both of these problems, and take us to the thematic idea the core of this film, of empathy.
Well, you talk about the emotional resonance, I don’t know that my theater had a bigger reaction than when one Bucky Barnes showed up. It makes so much sense that he would be the cameo, but I do have to wonder, were there conversations of anyone else being the cameo at any point?
Here’s what I’ll say: Bucky was always in the movie. And it was always an idea, or a question, rather, of when he would show up, whether it was the beginning, middle, someplace else, blah, blah, blah. And I think we found the right place that made sense for Sam’s emotional journey. And that was the key cameo, and the key purpose of it, right?
You don’t want to just be gratuitous. You want to make sure you’re always honoring the characters and their journeys. So, nobody could speak better to that than Bucky, in terms of where Sam was coming from and where he could be going. And yeah, that was that!
I’m excited to see what happens with that future Congressman storyline.
(laughs)
I have to imagine we’ll get some payoff in “Thunderbolts.“ But while we talk about setup; you set up a little bit for Bucky’s future, you leave a lane open intentionally for Sidewinder to return. I’m curious, what is your mandate, what are kind of the instructions of what you need to kind of tease going forward?
The beauty of it is that is never a conversation. It’s never like “Your mandate is to do this and this!” The mandate’s to tell the story. So first and foremost, it’s “How do we tell the story of Sam Wilson’s first cinematic adventure on the big screen? How do we evolve the character from where we left him at ‘Falcon and the Winter Soldier,’ and cement him as our new Captain America?”
Then it becomes, what things in this amazing toolbox that’s at Marvel help support that? And invariably, you end up having a connection to “Thunderbolts,” because Bucky is such a big part of Sam’s journey. So, organically, that finds its way into this film, and dovetails in a way that sets up what’s going forward.
So, you know, likewise, Captain America historically has been the leader of the Avengers. So if you’re cementing Sam and doing the right work emotionally and thematically, there’s no way that doesn’t pay off and set the stage for where things are going to go for Avengers in the larger MCU.
I will say, I was surprised we had so much Isaiah in this but we did not have Elijah Bradley. And I’m not going to go on the Young Avengers conspiracy theories, but just in terms of family, was there consideration for Eli at any point, or was he just not a fit for this particular story?
It just wasn’t a fit. You know, we have no shortage of characters in this movie (laughs). So at a certain point you want to focus on the players that really move the story forward.
Well, circling back to setup, I want to talk about the post-credits scene. There is only a post-credit scene. Sometimes there’s a mid-credit scene. Was there a hope for a mid-credit scene at any point, or was it always just the one?
It was always just a post-credit. There was never a conversation about having a mid-credit scene. And again, as I said, the mandate, if there was one, it was about Sam. And how do we cement and focus on Sam? And that’s why that post-credits sequence is still seen as still focused on him. You just don’t want to start throwing in too many things that either distract from that or that can’t even be paid off.
We talked about scenes getting rewritten and changed in rehearsals, was the post-credit scene that we see always the post-credit scene?
Yep! That was always pretty much the post-credit scene, and I say that because we didn’t shoot that until our additional photography process, which was when we always knew we were going to do it, because we had this time period allocated to do it.
And the goal was to make sure that we were doing it at a time which, because of the strikes, we weren’t writing, nobody was writing, where there was just a clearer picture of where things were going.
You mentioned that there’s no shortage of characters in this movie, but from what I hear, there were also, at a time, going to be more. There was going to be an Illuminati, at one point in this script. Who was in your Illuminati? Because we saw them in “Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness,” I need to know who was in yours.
I’m not going to say! I’m not going to say (laughs). Let’s just say things are purposely left vague in that post-credit for a reason.
As we end this, I would love to just go back again to the very beginning, for you and for Anthony Mackie. Anthony has talked about this as, “Captain America: The First Avenger” laid the groundwork for what became the Infinity saga. “Brave New World,” he says, sets the foundation for what is going to become the Multiverse Saga. So, for you guys, in the conversations that you had early on, what was kind of your North Star, “if we get nothing else in this film right, we need to get this aspect of it right”?
The North Star — and I’m glad you asked that question Andi, because it was something Anthony and I talked about in New Orleans when I visited him — was making sure we understand Sam’s superpower of his humanity, his compassion and his empathy.
You know, the first time we met Sam Wilson in this universe, and in fact, his second scene, is when he is giving care to veterans. He has that interaction after being at the reflecting pool with Chris Evans, with Steve Rogers. And he and I, and I think everybody at Marvel too, always knew that that’s part of what makes him so special. That’s what makes him different, yet also connects him to Steve. And we had to get that right.
And that’s where, if you look at how the story resolves both in terms of the climax of the action, but even in the quietness of his interactions with Joaquin, that’s the idea that connects all these scenes together. And I’m so, so gratified with how it came together.
Note: This interview has been edited for length and clarity
“Captain America: Brave New World” is now in theaters everywhere.
