While the season premiere of “Agatha All Along” set up some of the core mysteries of the show, Episode 2 assembled Agatha’s own Avengers. Well, OK, technically it’s just her coven. But they’re kind of like witchy Avengers?
The women certainly don’t have super powers, but each one has a very specific set of magical powers that are needed to form a coven, and a coven is what Agatha (Kathryn Hahn) needs to take on the Witches’ Road. None of them are exactly thrilled about teaming up with a known liar and power thief, but each of them wants power only the road can give them.
On top of that, there enters the mystery of the symbol on Joe Locke’s character, which we learn is a sigil. He can’t give any details on who he is or where he comes from.
So, with so many questions abound — plus one very intense musical number — TheWrap once again dug deep with showrunner Jac Schaeffer.
To kick off Episode 2, let’s talk about the sigil on Joe Locke’s mouth, because it sure does look like an M. You know what people are gonna think when they see something that clearly looks like a cursive M after the Mephisto discourse during “WandaVision.” So how was that decided upon?
I think the idea behind the sigil was a variety of things. We really loved doing the runes in “WandaVision,” which was then carried into Doctor Strange’s world. So it was a thing that was in our witchy playbook, that was carried forward in the MCU. And so we really wanted to do more of that kind of thing with the show.
We learned about sigils and a classic sigil is actually, it’s like a word that’s been kind of mashed up in a way. So we looked at a couple different designs. And the design of our sigil was really hard and time-consuming, and took a lot.
For the aesthetic on his mouth, the original idea was that it was a redaction bar, because that is what the spell is. It’s something being held back in a manner that is — it’s a spell that’s kind of clumsy. Like, a more sophisticated spell would just hide the whole thing, but it sort of shows its amateur-ness. So the original idea that I wrote was that it was a redaction bar, that sort of had that “rrrr” sound that goes with it.
But then we wanted it to feel at home with our sort of larger witchy aesthetic, which has more sort of lyricism to it, has sort of — I think of it as there’s like sans serif and serif writing. Do you know what I mean by that?
Yes! (Note: Serif fonts have small decorative strokes known as serifs at the ends of each letter. Sans serif fonts do not.)
Yeah, so our witchcraft is serif. It has like flourishes and stuff. So the redaction bar just seemed inelegant, and we liked the idea that it felt like his mouth was being stitched shut.
That part. The way it stitches him, it’s very Billy Butcherson-esque, from “Hocus Pocus.” Were you trying to go for the zombie-type look?
You know what? You’re the first to know this, I’ve never seen “Hocus Pocus.” (laughs).
Well do I have a recommendation for you this season.
I missed it generationally. That was problem A. And then problem B was, when I got this job, it felt too late to see it, in that I was worried by seeing it, it would sort of leech into the show. So I was like, plausible deniability, I’m just not going to see it. So I should probably see it at this point. People are going to come at me for that, that’s terrible.
But so no, for me, I was not trying to do anything that was similar to to “Hocus Pocus,” and it wasn’t meant to be sort of zombie.
The feeling that I wanted the audience to have was a similar to like in “WandaVision,” the little things of when Vision’s head is caved in, when she holds up the helicopter and it’s color in a black and white world, like with the jump cut.
I wanted it to be something where you’re moving along in a scene, people are talking to each other, you’re following the context, you’re following the exposition. Everything is going fine, and then suddenly something very weird happens, and you’re with Agatha of that, “Say again?” That’s the feeling that I wanted.
Well with that mystery, Episode 2 does a lot to build the relationship between Teen and Agatha. How do you preserve the mystery of him while still creating a bond that people are going to latch onto?
The mystery was the thing. Obviously there is the Marvel mystery, and that is fun, and that is a lot why people will probably be showing up — certainly Marvel fans — and that’s great, and I’m thrilled for that, and I hope that the mystery unfurls in a way that is satisfying to them.
But as a storyteller, for me, you have to motivate the mystery. Like, what is the point of the mystery? And to me, the entire point is the effect it has on Agatha. She’s about to walk out the door, and it’s when she sees the sigil that she reconsiders, “Why? What is it about this kid?”
What does she know? What does she not know? And the fact that as she goes around, she’s hiding from the other witches that he has a sigil. She doesn’t let them see his sigil. So that’s what I find provocative, and that is what motivates it, is that Agatha is the first to know any secret. Agatha is always holding things back.
That’s the real question to ask, is what is this kid’s utility to Agatha, both in the adventure of it, and what’s going on emotionally? What does it mean when Agatha, who has all the answers, is confronted with a mystery?
There’s also the mystery of how powerful he is, because she quickly catches on, like, “Oh, you were able to break me out of my spell. So that means you have the goods.” The prevailing theory is that he is Billy Kaplan. So, who is Teen? Just tell me, who is Teen?
(Laughs). This is the moment! I mean, I think Agatha is suspicious of the notion that he thinks he got her out of the spell. I think she’s dubious. I don’t think she thinks that he was the one. Her performance there, to me, conveys that she’s like, “Oh yeah, kid.” Like she’s on the bubble about that.
Rio was in the same cell, just behind the glass, and she’s got magic.
We don’t know. We don’t know what happened there.
Let’s talk about those other witches. Because Episode 2, it’s very much the “let’s get the band together” moment. How did you and your team go about writing who this cast of characters would be surrounding Agatha? How did you go about picking what witches she needed for her coven?
So yeah, it was very much like we’re putting together a gang for a heist. We actually often referred to it as our “Ocean’s Eleven” episode. And that’s because I’m a fan, and because I love a gathering of a team.
Also, my particular kink is women being good at their jobs. So I’m just like, let’s define the skill sets. Each one is an expert in a different thing. And that felt like, as we get on the road, that becomes crucial to the construction of the road.
So early on, it was sort of a conversation in tandem of what are the personalities that we want to see? And what are the skill sets we want to distinguish in our exploration of witchcraft in the MCU?
The writers room was obviously fantastic. Part of the reason I hired each of them is they each came in with different focuses. You know, Gia King is very into divination, and so she brought an expertise that was so helpful to us. And Jason Rostovsky is like a horror goth person, so he brought that in. So we had these big conversations about how do we carve out the skill sets? It was sort of like those were the templates, and then we were putting our sort of personalities and notions of them on top of that.
That part of it was about like, I love an ensemble dynamic. I love a group of misfits, and I love starting with maximum conflict so that we can see this group literally and figuratively harmonize as they go along in the journey.
You know, Maiden Mother Crone is a really big part of our notion of witchcraft in the MCU. And so we’re like, we need ages, we need different levels of experience. I mean, that was the best bit, figuring that company out. It was really fun.
Was it written for anyone when you guys are coming up with the personalities you want? How did you then go about casting this?
Sasheer [Zamata] says that she manifested this. First of all — I’ve said this, and I will continue to say it — they’re all witches. That was the thing. And like, if you said to any of them “Jac Schaeffer says you’re a witch,” they would be like, “Yep.”
No one is having a problem with that label, and that’s what I said when I had my first meeting with Patti [Lupone]. I was like, “So she’s a centuries old Sicilian witch.” And she was like, “I am a Sicilian witch.” And I was like, “I believe you, you are hired.”
But as far as your question about, were we writing for anyone in particular? We weren’t. I mean, we talked about types, we talked about tropes, and then we had big dreams, of course.
I can’t even remember that sort of era very well, because all of these performers came in and so fully owned the roles that I feel like it’s like witchcraft on my brain. I can’t remember the before times. I can’t remember when they these characters weren’t played by these women.
They’re all just so good and so fun. And you talk about harmonizing; we’ve got to talk about “The Ballad of the Witches’ Road.” It’s got to be daunting when you come out of “WandaVision” and you have a banger like “Agatha All Along,” so much so that it gives you the title of your next show. But how did that come together? Was the idea “We need to top ‘Agatha All Along?’”
It wasn’t like “We got to top it,” because that always feels like a fool’s errand. But I was like, “There’s no way we’re doing the show without another song, if not more songs.” And also, obviously the Lopezes [will create it]. I was like, “This is a condition upon which I agree to sign onto this is if they are a part of it.”
So we knew that there would be a song, we knew there would be music. We ran at it so hard that it became so tightly woven with the actual plot of the show. It actually, to me, is the spine of the show. An early distillation was like, well, music is witchcraft. A song is a spell. So we were like, “That’s it. The song is the spell that opens the road.” That was the big sort of light bulb moment.
But then it became really complicated, because there are things that needed to be embedded in the lyrics of the ballad, that were part of the rules of the world. But it couldn’t be like “You must have a green witch, and you must have a potions witch,” because it’s an ancient song. So it can’t actually be expositional. It has to be poetry that is believable as centuries old. So that’s when you call the Lopezes, and you’re like, “Here’s the task.”
They were so up for it and so excited. And the version that is in Episode 2, we call the sacred chant version, because it was their notion early on that it would have this sort of ethereal chant thing, and that it would have deeply complex harmonies, which is something they’re so talented at. Specifically Kristen, in that when she sent me the demo, she did all the harmonies. So, I have a version where she sings all the harmonies.
But I had to work really closely with them for the lyrics, because the lyrics had to check all of these story boxes. But that’s where [the Lopezes] come from. Character and story woven into the actual song is their favorite. So I was really lucky.
I’m curious how the cast felt about singing. Obviously Kathryn Hahn sang on “Agatha All Along,” I have to assume she was super game for this. And of course, you’ve got Patti LuPone in your back pocket, which she could have soloed that if really necessary. But curious how the rest of the cast felt about it?
They were all up for it. Kathryn, obviously, from the very beginning. And, of course, Patti. But Ali Ahn is a trained vocalist and pianist, which we didn’t know until we were practically giving her the role. We were like, “Oh! Look how we lucked out. That’s pretty lucky.”
And then Sasheer also just has a terrific voice. Sasheer as a person is also just unafraid, she is very powerful in that way. I love, actually, when we go to each witch in the scene in the basement, when we’re in close up, we dial up sound-wise, we dial up their . And I love hearing Sasheer’s voice come through. There’s like a richness.
It’s so strong.
So strong. And Ali’s is higher, but really like crystal pure. It’s just really special. They loved it.
The thing that was, I think, a surprise to them and challenging, is when we shot the scene in the basement, when we shot the ensemble, the wides and then the steady cam shots, when everyone was on camera, we had playback, and they were singing to the playback.
But when we shot their individual coverage, we couldn’t use playback. We needed to capture their actual live singing, and we couldn’t get the other witches at the same time. So they each had to sing the entire ballad twice on their own. (Laughs).
Oh my God, that’s cruel!
And they were nervous, but they were holding hands. So it was this round robin of like, women supporting women.
And that is my kink.
Seriously! And each time it was their turn, they would step up to the plate, and they would hold hands, and they would be incredibly vulnerable, which also is a piece that Patti brought to the basement scene.
I wasn’t thinking about their vulnerability. I was like, “OK, they get together. They they don’t like each other, but they’re trying to do a thing, so they’re all going to sing together.” And Patti was the one who was like, “We would be vulnerable. We are attempting a thing that we don’t know if we can actually do, and that feels unsafe, and so we’re all going to be nervous.” And I was like, “Yes! What Patti said!”
And the fear on their faces, that’s what I loved about the close-up shots. Especially Sasheer, you have this little bit of panic in her eyes.
Yes! Which to me, with Sasheer, changes that character from just being a bitch into being a fully realized human. Because you see that hardened veneer slip for a second and she’s scared. They’re all scared they can’t do it.
All of them have either no power or reduced power, and they are afraid that they can’t get it back, that it’s gone for good. Like, that’s what scares them, and they’re afraid to try. And so the coming together and trying together with women they don’t necessarily trust is very, very shaky ground.
I have to say before I get to my actual final question, the outfits that you put Kathryn Hahn in, I cannot wait for the cosplay that I’m gonna see at conventions for the next year or two.
Yes. So that’s Daniel Selon. He is a genius. We all love him. He is in the coven. He did extraordinary work. It is all so beautiful. I can’t wait for him to be able to, farther down the road, ha ha, be able to do his deep dive, because there’s so many things embedded in the costuming that we can’t even talk about right now.
But I will tell you this one thing, which I think you’ll be entertained by. When we were looking at early cuts of 1×02, there’s the shot where Agatha comes out of her house and walks down her little road, right? When you first see her in her road look, in that duster, that fab, fab duster.
And so she just walks down, and we’ve got some score with it, it’s a crane shot, and she stands there, she sees the coyote, and then she sweeps her coat and walks in. We were watching an early cut, and Kevin Feige was like, “Soooo, this shot is just to see the outfit?” And I was like, “Yeah, Kevin. The answer is yeah.” And he was like “OK!” (Laughs).
I respect you so much. That brings me such joy.
I was really afraid he was gonna be like, “Well, it doesn’t serve a purpose. We gotta cut it.” But yeah, he didn’t. There was a pause, and then we all kept moving.
That’s incredible. OK, so the end of the episode, this whole ballad is going on, and we leave them with these creatures attacking, which Aubrey Plaza called “The Salem Seven.” What are those things? Are they like witches of the past? Are they creatures?
Yes. Well, that’s a spoiler. We’re going to learn about the Salem Seven, so get ready. Buckle up!
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity
“Agatha All Along” is now streaming on Disney+. You can read TheWrap’s breakdown of Episode 1 here. We’ll have a new deep dive with Schaeffer each Monday after the newest episode.
